A simple overview of beliefs of each person

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Re: A simple overview of beliefs of each person

Post  80-0 on 3/1/2010, 16:57

We were made in the image of God, yes, but we don't represent Him. Neutral
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Re: A simple overview of beliefs of each person

Post  Cpt. Crinkle on 3/1/2010, 21:03

The bare minimum of faith could be seen as in a Calvinist church with the simplicity but I still have a problem with the predestination idea. The church I go to has a simple doctrine about not being separate from Christianity and the church group prefers to just be called Christians. To really see all of these things you must take a clear mind to view the different denominations. I still view many as false doctrine though. So I really cannot say beyond a point. But all churches have their time of corruption and struggle. Examples include indulgences and when my church had a guy go down to South America and start a cult then the group all committed suicide. So really its possible still to live with only 2 sacraments.

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Re: A simple overview of beliefs of each person

Post  0001 on 3/1/2010, 23:49

Wow, very good points you have their Crinkle. Shocked

@80-0: Yes, we do represent God, that's what Christians do, we are God's hands and feet here on earth. Wink

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Re: A simple overview of beliefs of each person

Post  80-0 on 3/2/2010, 04:40

Cpt. Crinkle wrote:The bare minimum of faith could be seen as in a Calvinist church with the simplicity but I still have a problem with the predestination idea. The church I go to has a simple doctrine about not being separate from Christianity and the church group prefers to just be called Christians. To really see all of these things you must take a clear mind to view the different denominations. I still view many as false doctrine though. So I really cannot say beyond a point. But all churches have their time of corruption and struggle. Examples include indulgences and when my church had a guy go down to South America and start a cult then the group all committed suicide. So really its possible still to live with only 2 sacraments.

Uh, as long as you don't get married and don't have priests... oh wait, without priests you can't have a Sunday service and thus can't keep the Commandment thereof, and can't even give out the Holy Eucharist. I still don't get how you can do that without priests.

@ ABL: So why can't we forgive sins, work miracles, and do what God does? Oh right, we can't.

And in response to what you said about "Confessing to the Church gains you nothing", well, that statement is defeated by what you said earlier about confessing to God anywhere, any time. If I only need to confess to God, then confessing to a priest in a small dark room won't hurt me because God can see everything and hear everything; all I need to do is have true sorrow for the sins I've committed, as you said before. Wink
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Re: A simple overview of beliefs of each person

Post  0001 on 3/2/2010, 18:32

Hmmm, I guess that's sorta true, but you need to aknowledge that you are asking for forgiveness from God, not just a priest. Wink

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Re: A simple overview of beliefs of each person

Post  80-0 on 3/3/2010, 04:54

astoriabluelegos wrote:Hmmm, I guess that's sorta true, but you need to aknowledge that you are asking for forgiveness from God, not just a priest. Wink

No, I believe God gives the priests that power just as he gave it to his apostles, because I also believe that power passes down to priests today. So the priest is not forgiving my sins, God is forgiving them THROUGH the priest.
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Re: A simple overview of beliefs of each person

Post  0001 on 3/3/2010, 12:04

I'd be very very careful there. God doesn't work that way, he doesn't GIVE people power anymore, not since Jesus died and the new covenant. Sure the apostles had that power, but it died with them. And why go through another person? We have a direct line of communication with God. Wink

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Re: A simple overview of beliefs of each person

Post  80-0 on 3/4/2010, 04:10

No. You can't say God doesn't do something "anymore". You don't know that at all and have no proof of that, and you don't know that the power of the apostles died with them.

Sure we have a direct line of communication with God, but it seems so vague and so unfulfilling (I hate to use that word) to just confess your sins to empty space. Sure, if you're like me or you you know God is listening, but for some people they need a more concrete assurance.
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Re: A simple overview of beliefs of each person

Post  0001 on 3/4/2010, 23:36

Yeah I do know, that kind of power was a trademark of the old testment ways. In exchange for harsher rules, followers had more power. When Christ dide the covenant changed, so did the rules. Because the Apostles were of the old covenant, they retained that power, but it ended there.

I guess I can understand that, it's just awfully close to idol worship for my taste, even though it's not.

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Re: A simple overview of beliefs of each person

Post  80-0 on 3/5/2010, 06:51

Well if it ended there, why has the Catholic Church been so stupid as to have thought it didn't end there all the 1900 years since his death? Maybe because it didn't end there?


How is confessing sins to another person who represents God idol worship? I'm not worshiping the priest, I'm worshiping God. I'm not confessing to the priest, I'm confessing to God. Unless of course he's your confessor, another advantage of priestly confession; if you know your priest well he can give you advice on how to overcome sin. God wants us to overcome sin, not just to get on our knees every night and say we're sorry for it, then fall back into the sin the very next day.

Another thing is penance. Every time you go to priestly confession, depending on the gravity of your sins the priest will give you a certain penance to perform in order to fully absolve you of the sins and to remit some of the temporal punishment due thereof.

When you confess sins to God do you do penance? You'd have to have awful strong convictions... now I've no doubt that Ben and people like him would do penance, but how about the common people?
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Re: A simple overview of beliefs of each person

Post  0001 on 3/5/2010, 10:14

80-0 wrote:Well if it ended there, why has the Catholic Church been so stupid as to have thought it didn't end there all the 1900 years since his death?

Because they've been blinded by ambition, greed, and emotion. Remember these are the SAME people who forgave sins for cash, and were very very corrupt. It simply does not work that way. Penance? Where is that mentioned anywhere in the Bible? Where are priests and their so called "powers" mentioned?

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Re: A simple overview of beliefs of each person

Post  80-0 on 3/5/2010, 12:37

astoriabluelegos wrote:
80-0 wrote:Well if it ended there, why has the Catholic Church been so stupid as to have thought it didn't end there all the 1900 years since his death?

Because they've been blinded by ambition, greed, and emotion. Remember these are the SAME people who forgave sins for cash, and were very very corrupt. It simply does not work that way. Penance? Where is that mentioned anywhere in the Bible? Where are priests and their so called "powers" mentioned?

David did penance for his many sins... and it's mentioned somewhere else, that I have to go look up.

There was no "forgiving sins for cash". That process was the "selling of indulgences", which in no way shape or form forgive sins, and has been condemned. I think you need to read a real history book: Christ the King, Lord of History. It's by Dr. Ann Carroll, and it's awesome. It covers all the heresies, all the scandals, and anything and everything involved in Church history. Plus, she makes a great case for why Christ had to have risen from the dead, and other such basic Christian philosophies.

Dun da DUN!
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Re: A simple overview of beliefs of each person

Post  Cpt. Crinkle on 3/5/2010, 16:41

I disagree this is like my earlier talk God and a person has a personal relationship rather than through church personal. The priests are only to interpret God's word.

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Re: A simple overview of beliefs of each person

Post  80-0 on 3/6/2010, 04:27

You don't think they're there to provide any spiritual inspiration at all aside from reading Scripture to them?

Your personal relationship with God doesn't determine whether you get to Heaven or not. That is determined by the state of your soul. Your personal relationship with God will make it easier to keep your soul in good shape, but merely having a good said relationship will not take you to Heaven. I think the Church and its priests are there to help guide us and inspire us to get to Heaven, not only through the Scriptural readings, but through good to-the-point homilies which encourage us to act in the right way, not just to ramble on about how God is good (which is fine as long as you tell the people to BE good BECAUSE God is good) and nothing more. Not only through giving out just two Sacraments, what's wrong with all seven?

Ya'll say your personal relationship with God is key; well, how can receiving not two, but three, or four sacraments be bad for your personal relationship? Confirmation makes us soldiers of Christ - it gives us the willingness, courage, and knowledge needed to defend our Faith in the public square, and to not hold back about it at all. Penance not only reminds us of the mercy of God, it reminds us of the justness of God. I believe that God is good. Who doesn't? A few nutty atheists, but that's aside the point. Razz I believe God is also just. Now the concept of a just God alas scares sensitive people perhaps because they've done something so bad that they would never believe that God would just forgive them of it. That's a reason Penance is so powerful: no matter your sin you can be guaranteed that once the priest speaks the words of absolution and you go out to do your penance, God has forgiven your sins. Every last one, provided you confessed them accurately and honestly. What is wrong with believing that? The words spoken in the sacrament of Penance and the actions taken are all for the greater glory of God. I'm pretty sure the Catholic Church is one of the only if not the only (the only is most likely) to have a solid easily explained method of obtaining forgiveness for your sins. Thus, if your process of merely asking God for forgiveness were the best way, we wouldn't be wrong either because we'd merely be expanding on an already perfect process.

I just must say one thing: Why are you so opposed to the concept of penance (the act post-sacrament, not the sacrament itself)? Just because it isn't written all over the Bible and just because the virtue of humility is one of the most under-stressed and unused virtues ever in this day and age, doesn't mean that penance is bad.

Like I said before, about a just God. You have rejected the premise of purgatory; I believe in purgatory because I believe in a just God. I believe that Heaven is for the perfect. This means that when you die, if you have recently had your sins forgiven, you will need to suffer something because you committed all those sins. The occasion of sin still lives on in your body; there's no denying that you probably would commit those sins again if you were left up to it in Heaven. Thus all trace of sin or of want of sin or of the temptation to sin must be eliminated, whether through purgatory or through any form of purification. Now you may say the devil can't possibly be in Heaven because he'll be locked up in Hell. I say yes, but I also say the devil has done so much to each of us that the premise of sinning has been ingrained in our souls.

If you believe in Hell, why don't you believe in purgatory? Both are a punishment for sin. The former is a punishment for those hopelessly enstrangled by the false self-gratification offered by sin, and those who have refused to show any sorrow thereof. The latter is a punishment for the just who have proven themselves to be good and faithful servants of the laws of Jesus Christ, who simply need to have any trace of sin left over eliminated before entry into Heaven.

I think purgatory is a good and hopeful concept; it gives hope to those who believe that the sin they committed is too vast to be fully forgiven. And that's why the sacrament of Penance is so great. Not everyone, I'm sorry to say, is as trusting as you guys are (and you're great because of it, I really do admire your trust in God); I just think letting God hear your sins out loud, spoken with such conviction that you would even tell them to another person (whether or not he could tell anyone else, and he can't), not just squirreling them away within yourself (pardon the expression! Embarassed ).


(if this gets several tl;dr's, I will totally understand Wink )
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Re: A simple overview of beliefs of each person

Post  0001 on 3/6/2010, 20:57

I read it all, it was....interesting. From that point of view, I would agree with pretty much all of it, it's basically just a different approach, but the core beliefs are the same. I don't believe in purgatory, but rather my understanding is that you will be judged for each and every one of the sins you committed in life. Like in a court, God is the judge, Jesus your defense, and the Devil the oppositon. Basically going through all the sins you have ever committed. And how you lived your life states how much Jesus will deffend you. From that stand point Catholicism is perfectly acceptable to me as a valid form of Christianity, I just think some people take it too far, and it is awfully complicated. Wink

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Re: A simple overview of beliefs of each person

Post  80-0 on 3/7/2010, 04:47

I totally agree about the court; that's how I was taught to see it as well. Smile

Yes, some people do take it too far, but I don't think I'm one of those people.


Am I? <_< >_>
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Re: A simple overview of beliefs of each person

Post  0001 on 3/7/2010, 12:32

Not according to that last post, actually I think we are quite similer in fact actually. Smile

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Re: A simple overview of beliefs of each person

Post  Cpt. Crinkle on 3/8/2010, 21:58

You can still live with two sacraments and none of the prophets were perfect but I still don't believe in paying, with money, to go to Heaven. And to me there is no purgatory. You are either sent to Heaven or if you don't believe Hell. I don't see why a church would get so desperate as to need money that they sold forgiveness. Couldn't they just ask God for help? Now a quiz who was Johann Tetzel?

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Re: A simple overview of beliefs of each person

Post  0001 on 3/8/2010, 23:09

Hmmmm, good points there Crink, I agree with you, but I don't think the church is doing that anymore (hopefully). And I've never heard of him. Laughing

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Re: A simple overview of beliefs of each person

Post  80-0 on 3/9/2010, 05:00

I still don't believe the Church sold forgiveness. First of all, you're assuming that if one fringe guy did it, the whole Church did it, and thus saying "the Church sold forgiveness" rather than saying "a crazy fringe priest who was denounced and rejected by the rest of the Church sold forgiveness". Second of all, what about people who are good Christians but sinned a LOT RIGHT before they died and didn't ask for forgiveness? Do they go to Heaven all covered in sin? Heaven is for perfection. No blemish caused by sin can be found there. Third of all, I don't know who Johann Tetzel is.

/me googles it

He sold indulgences. Indulgences don't forgive sin. They relieve the soul of temporal punishment DUE to sin. Temporal punishment is what you get for sinning. Indulgences are what relieve the soul of all or part (plenary or partial indulgences) of said punishment. So this Tetzel guy had, as the article said, fallen into disrepute and was shunned by the public. Obviously the public did not approve of what he was doing. Wink
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Re: A simple overview of beliefs of each person

Post  0001 on 3/9/2010, 15:35

The Catholic Church did sell indulgences, ALL throughout the middle ages, which is why Luther left. Wink They don't do that anymore though I think.

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Re: A simple overview of beliefs of each person

Post  Cpt. Crinkle on 3/10/2010, 21:27

Yes and but still a few years ago I saw an article in the paper considering the selling of indulgences again. Now two more people to look up William Tindale and Pope Julius 2nd? (hint one of the most brave popes)

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Re: A simple overview of beliefs of each person

Post  80-0 on 3/11/2010, 05:22

Cpt. Crinkle wrote:Yes and but still a few years ago I saw an article in the paper considering the selling of indulgences again. Now two more people to look up William Tindale and Pope Julius 2nd? (hint one of the most brave popes)

And which paper would that be? Rolling Eyes

Tindale translated the bible I think.

I don't know the Pope.

@ ABL: You're not reading my post. Selling indulgences is not selling forgiveness. I'm not denying that A Catholic priest sold indulgences, I'm:

A. denying the Catholic Church sold indulgences

B. denying the Catholic Church OR that priest sold forgiveness
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Re: A simple overview of beliefs of each person

Post  0001 on 3/11/2010, 18:40

But they did both, read your history books. Wink And yeah, it was in our paper a while back about that.

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Re: A simple overview of beliefs of each person

Post  Jedi Joe on 3/11/2010, 18:45

Not to forget, the old Catholic church would kill people for having different beliefs than them.

Like that the Earth orbit the sun...
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