A simple overview of beliefs of each person

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Re: A simple overview of beliefs of each person

Post  Cpt. Crinkle on 3/11/2010, 21:24

Tindale did translate the Bible to English and was branded a heretic. Pope Julius the 2nd was the warrior pope who actually led his troops to battle.

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Re: A simple overview of beliefs of each person

Post  0001 on 3/11/2010, 22:41

@Joe: Yep, the Inquistion anyone? The old Church was extrmeally corrupt.

@Crinkle: Yep.

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Re: A simple overview of beliefs of each person

Post  80-0 on 3/12/2010, 06:34

Jedi Joe wrote:Not to forget, the old Catholic church would kill people for having different beliefs than them.

Like that the Earth orbit the sun...

YOU LIE.

@ ABL: Inquisition, eh? Come and get it:

First of all you all clearly know nothing about the Inquisition. I'm gonna read out of my history book from the pages about the Inquisition.

During the years of turmoil, the Church had become weak and corrupt. Isabel was a fervent Catholic, putting the cause of Christ first in all she did. Furthermore, she knew that Spain's unity as a nation depended on a strong Church-Spain might as well have not existed if it were not Catholic through and through. She set about reforming the Church, raising the educational and moral standards of the clergy. Many abuses were halted, including the practice of selling indulgences which would cause much grief in the rest of Europe.

One of the most serious problems the Church faced was the number of Jews and Moors who had been baptized as Catholics and risen to high positions in the government and the Church without really believing in any basic Christian doctrine. These false Conversos and Moriscos (converted Jews and Moors) were a threat to the Church and Spain, and a way had to be found of determining who was a true Christian and loyal Spaniard and who was a traitor. Isabel knew that not all the Conversos and Moriscos were enemies-her own confessor was a Converso as was the husband of her closest friend. But to protect the innocent, the guilty had to be found.

The method Isabel chose was the Inquisition: a court which would examine evidence and judge whether a person was a faithful Christian or an enemy of Church and country. At teh beginning of the Inquisition, there were many abuses-some innocent people suffered and torture was used frequently. At this point the Pope stepped in and appointed new Inquisitors, with the Grand Inquisitor being a Dominican monk named Tomas de Torquemada. Torquemada reformed the procedure of the Inquisition to ensure that justice would be done. He made its procedures more lenient and improved conditions in the prisons. He personally examined appeals from the accused and gave money to help the families of those on trial.

The actions of the Inquisition are often criticized, usually as a means of attacking Spain by those who resent the strong Catholic character of the country. One criticism is that the Inquisition used torture. It did, though less so under Torquemada than before him. Torture is wrong, and the Church has since condemned any use of torture. But at the time, all governments routinely ued torture as a means of extracting confessions. Though the fact that a sin is routinely committed does not justify it, the Inquisitors were most probably acting in good faith, and they should not be singled out as unusually evil.

A second attack is that the Inquisition's judgments led to the execution of the guilty. People in modern times consider it wrong to execute people for not truly believing the religion they professed, but that is not in fact why they were executed. Those found guilty were traitors to the state and to the Church, and treason has almost always been recognized as a crime justifying capital punishment. Furthermore, those found guilty were always given a chance to repent. Only if they refused to repent of if they relapsed into their crimes after promising repentance were they executed. Finally, only 2000 were executed, a small percentage of the 100000 put on trial.

A final charge is that the method of execution, burning at the stake, was unusually barbaric. But the 16th century was a brutal time. In England, capital punishment consisted of being hanged, cut down while still alive, disembowelled, and then cut into four pieces (hanged, drawn, and quartered); in France, it was to be boiled alive. Again, Spain should not be singled out for condemnation.

The Inquisition, in fact, though not perfect, was a more just court than most. There are many accounts of people charged with regular crimes who would pretend to be heretics so that they could be transferred to the custody of the Inquisition, whose prisoners were better treated.

Looking at the Inquisition historically, we see that it avoided more deaths than it caused. Because Spain was united religiously as well as politically, it did not suffer the religious wars which came when Protestantism began in other countries. Furthermore, a few years later other parts of Europe went through a witchcraft hysteria, when many people were executed as witches on only the flimsiest of evidence, or no evidence at all (30000 in England, 100000 in Germany). In Spain, the Inquisition investigated charges of witchcraft and found them baseless, thus saving many innocent people from death.



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Re: A simple overview of beliefs of each person

Post  0001 on 3/12/2010, 11:22

Hmm, that's a very interesting article there. I'd like to know it's source.

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Re: A simple overview of beliefs of each person

Post  Cpt. Crinkle on 3/12/2010, 12:59

You do realize the church was doing something stupid too you don't need to ask about faith and you should just remove the person from office if they really don't show faith. So the killing was really useless. So the Early Church did have corruptness. The striking out by the church against protestants was big because the church didn't want to lose people causing less people they had control of.

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Re: A simple overview of beliefs of each person

Post  0001 on 3/12/2010, 13:43

Those are some very good points Crinkle...

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Re: A simple overview of beliefs of each person

Post  80-0 on 3/12/2010, 15:01

astoriabluelegos wrote:Hmm, that's a very interesting article there. I'd like to know it's source.

I already told you all it's from my history book: [url=]Christ the King, Lord of History.[/url]

Cpt. Crinkle wrote:You do realize the church was doing something stupid too you don't need to ask about faith and you should just remove the person from office if they really don't show faith. So the killing was really useless. So the Early Church did have corruptness. The striking out by the church against protestants was big because the church didn't want to lose people causing less people they had control of.

You're very wrong. Fortunately I'm here to explain why!

First, they didn't know who didn't know the faith so obviously they had to ask everyone (this is the olden days, remember? There aren't computers and emails and fast forms of communication, so a mass trial was the most convenient way to do it).

Second, what good is removing them from office if they remain heretical? The killing was not useless. If the people who refused to rejoin the faith were simply removed from office, they'd remain a bad influence in Spain, and if banished, would just continue to be a traitor outside of Spain (they're Spanish citizens, too, so they were treated that way for a reason).

Third, what striking out by the Church against protestants? Do you mean protestants with a lower case p, or do you mean the actual Protestant church? Are you talking about the so-called "Bloody Mary"? If so I have another page or so from my history book. Wink
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Re: A simple overview of beliefs of each person

Post  Sgt Angry Egg on 3/12/2010, 15:21

I've got a sore throat, and still have to do chores, so I'm not going to go through the whole thing, but here are some of the major problems I have with that exert from your book:

That article focuses on the Spanish Inquisition, but fails to confront Joe's statement about the Roman Inquisition.

Furthermore, there's no way to tell how many people may have died in a religious war. So saying that less people were killed under the Spanish Inquisition than would have been killed in a hypothetical war is an unfounded statement.

Also, the Church is a religious organization, so to compare it to secular organizations is like comparing apples and oranges. They cannot be held to the same standards;The Church's inquisitions violate the commandment about not murdering, along with the Golden Rule, both of which are stated in the Bible.

The moors and Jews converted because if they didn't, the catholics would've killed them. Just like if you go to Palestine and say you're a Christian, you'll get shot.
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Re: A simple overview of beliefs of each person

Post  80-0 on 3/13/2010, 04:32

Sgt Angry Egg wrote:I've got a sore throat, and still have to do chores, so I'm not going to go through the whole thing, but here are some of the major problems I have with that exert from your book:

That article focuses on the Spanish Inquisition, but fails to confront Joe's statement about the Roman Inquisition.

What's the Roman Inquisition and what does it have to do with the Spanish Inquisition?

Furthermore, there's no way to tell how many people may have died in a religious war. So saying that less people were killed under the Spanish Inquisition than would have been killed in a hypothetical war is an unfounded statement.

One of many statements, one of many...

Also, the Church is a religious organization, so to compare it to secular organizations is like comparing apples and oranges. They cannot be held to the same standards;The Church's inquisitions violate the commandment about not murdering, along with the Golden Rule, both of which are stated in the Bible.

That's an extremely foolish idea. So you say the Church can go around being nice and soft and fuzzy, but the Moslems (Muslims, whatever) can murder and sin and whatnot but will not fall under criticism because they aren't supposed to follow those rules? Wrong! They can very much be held to the same standards. Back then, people didn't have very many saints to show them how to act; thus they were basically going with the flow (I don't agree with that, though). And let me stress this final point: Capital punishment was an acceptable punishment for treason all over Europe. They had no way to know that it broke the fifth commandment because they figured they were acting out of justice.

The moors and Jews converted because if they didn't, the catholics would've killed them. Just like if you go to Palestine and say you're a Christian, you'll get shot.

So don't go to Palestine. In fact I wouldn't want to go to Palestine. But you know why they came to Spain? Because Spain was so much better than wherever they came from.

I know how you feel, I had a sore throat the other day, but I took Zicam cold remedy, and it seriously reduced the severity of my cold. I usually have this really bad sore throat, then this really bad congestion, then this funny thing in my eye that leads into a bad headache, and ends pleasantly enough with me throwing up whatever crap was inside me to begin with. Razz

But now, the congestion was very minor, the funny thing was only there for about ten minutes (it usually stays for several hours along with the headache), and the headache disappeared along with it, and I didn't throw up.


But enough about me!
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Re: A simple overview of beliefs of each person

Post  Cpt. Crinkle on 3/13/2010, 09:21

What should have been done with these "traitors of the church" is they should have been moved somewhere else. Do you still think some of these people are heretics? These people were just trying to reform the church on their own term when the counter-reformation starts and many people are killed. The early church had an issue with people deciding to go off on their own as it led to fewer people who will be under there command. By the way according to the way it's sounding I seem like a heretic. By the way who was Zwingli?

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Re: A simple overview of beliefs of each person

Post  80-0 on 3/13/2010, 10:04

Cpt. Crinkle wrote:What should have been done with these "traitors of the church" is they should have been moved somewhere else.

What would that accomplish? They would just create another anti-Spain community/country/whatever. Letting them remain heretical would cause rifts in the Church, which are what the devil wants to happen to Christianity. Christians need to be united today, and the Church needed to be united back then.

Do you still think some of these people are heretics? These people were just trying to reform the church on their own term.

What right have they to reform the church? You don't just get to make your own church...

When the counter-reformation starts and many people are killed.

What counter-reformation are you talking about? I'm confused.

The early church had an issue with people deciding to go off on their own as it led to fewer people who will be under there command.

Could it be that they didn't want people "under their command", but they wanted to keep people on the straight path to Heaven?

By the way according to the way it's sounding I seem like a heretic.

Ok.. if you say so. Razz

By the way who was Zwingli?

Beyond me!
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Re: A simple overview of beliefs of each person

Post  Sgt Angry Egg on 3/13/2010, 11:50

What's the Roman Inquisition and what does it have to do with the Spanish Inquisition?

The Roman Inquisition was an Inquisition in Rome. It's the inquisition Joe was referencing when he alluded to Galileo.

That's an extremely foolish idea. So you say the Church can go around being nice and soft and fuzzy, but the Moslems (Muslims, whatever) can murder and sin and whatnot but will not fall under criticism because they aren't supposed to follow those rules? Wrong! They can very much be held to the same standards. Back then, people didn't have very many saints to show them how to act; thus they were basically going with the flow (I don't agree with that, though). And let me stress this final point: Capital punishment was an acceptable punishment for treason all over Europe. They had no way to know that it broke the fifth commandment because they figured they were acting out of justice.

I did not say that. What I was saying is that the church teaches Christianity, and should therefore follow its christian teachings (christian teachings here meaning the 5th commandment, etc.).

So don't go to Palestine. In fact I wouldn't want to go to Palestine. But you know why they came to Spain? Because Spain was so much better than wherever they came from.

Whatever the reason, they were in Spain and had to convert to survive.
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