The Christian take on homosexuality

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The Christian take on homosexuality

Post  0001 on 3/8/2010, 00:22

I've been waiting for this topic to come up, and thus far it seems that we have avoided discussing it. I think it's about time to get it out of the way, if it's too inflamitory I'll close, but I'd like to get a dialogue going on it if possible.

Alright, the whole gay/transgender/whatever movement has really been gaining strength lately, especially around here. So exactly what is the Christian take on it all? How as Christians should we approach this?

Well we know that God intended man and women to be together. We are designed physically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually to fit together. God takes marriage very seriously, as he does all covenants, and clearly defines it as between man and women.

So where do gays fit into this? Where did they come from anyways? Well I'm not quite sure actually, but I'll do my best at answeing those questions. I'm not sure what exactly makes a person gay, or why you even would want to be. I have seen many studies that seems to show the culprit as a brain structure thing. But the fact is, it doesn't really matter where or hwo it happend, they are here, and want to let is know it too.

The very first step to figuring this situation out, is to drop all hatred. Remember, the fact of the matter is, they are people too. Humans, no less then you or me, and God loves them just the same as he loves us. So, exactly what rights should they have? This is a very heated debate these days, and creates fiery passion on both sides. As far as I'm concerned there is no "cure" to being gay, nor is it neccesarily a sickeness. I think God could fix it, but I doubt the person would be open to that.

Pretty much my take on it is this, we don't have to agree with them, but we do need to tolerate them, and not persecute them. God is the one in charge of making judgements, not us. Remember, the middle of the road is the best place to be, EXCEPT when something is for sure 100% challenging Gods teachings. This is one of those unique situations. They are people, and should recieve the same rights everybody else gets, EXCEPT the right to marriage. Marriage is defined in the Bible as being hetrosexual. Marriage is a Christian rite, and comes directly from God. God created people to be hetrosexual, simply for species renewal if nothing else. If you think about it from that standpoint, there is not evolutionary (for lack of a better term) purpose of homosexuality, and it exists in no other species. It doesn't pass on genes, nor does it help us at all as a species. Marriage is a sacred right, with specific rules.

I think that they can form domestic partnerships if they want, it pretty much has the same legal rights as being married, but without the Marriage principle. Which is what this is all about, it's all about the principle of it. Marriage is sacred, as God intended it, between man and wife, as is reinforced all over in the Bible. If we allow people who are not in accordance with God's teachings to marry, we are allowing sin to pervade the teachings. I'm not sure if being gay is actually a sin, it's kind of a gray area. But because relationships were designed by God to be hetrosexual (If you don't believe me, just look at your body, if we were meant to be gay, we would be hermaphrodites), so anything besides hetrosexual marriage is therefore wrong.

Gays should have the exact same rights as us. Except the right to the holy covenant of marriage. Marriage is a Christian principle, and a rite created by God. You would think that something like that would disinterest gays, becuase of the Christian implications. I also strongly believe that being gay is fundamentally wrong, and is not compatible with being a Christian, because it conflicts directly with core Christian principles and beliefs. You can call me whatever names you want, but it's obvious God did not intend people to be gay, and therefore it is wrong. We should still treat them as any other person, and give them the love that God wants us to share with all, but we should deffend marriage as a rite between man and wife.

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Re: The Christian take on homosexuality

Post  80-0 on 3/8/2010, 09:39

Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve.

That is all. Very Happy
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Re: The Christian take on homosexuality

Post  0001 on 3/8/2010, 11:59

Exactly!!! cheers

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Re: The Christian take on homosexuality

Post  Jedi Joe on 3/8/2010, 12:25

Lol, I love that saying! Laughing

The whole "They were born that way!" thing is hogwash. There might be a chemical difference that makes people more prone to being queer, kinda like alcoholism, but many scientists have proven that there really isn't any genetic reason to homosexuality.
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Re: The Christian take on homosexuality

Post  0001 on 3/8/2010, 12:35

Yeah pretty much, I just wish it really had never happened to begin with, since it creates so many problems, and is a battle that will not be easily won, for either side. Mad

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Re: The Christian take on homosexuality

Post  Sgt Angry Egg on 3/8/2010, 14:56

Ah, finally, a subject I can really sink my teeth into, argument-wise.
I'm all for gay rights. Here's why:
1. The claim that they should be denied the status of marriage due to marriage being a covenant with God is hypocritical, as we allow heterosexual members of other religions to get married, despite the fact that they don't believe in the same God as us.
2. "Marriage" is just a word, and thus nothing more than an arbitrary term. It really doesn't take much effort to append the prefix "same sex" or "heterosexual" when necessary.
3. It's none of our business. What they do in the privacy of their own homes doesn't concern me, or you, or anyone else on this site, save any closet gays we may have in our midst.

Expanding on 1 and 2: Marriage is a legal status dictating property distribution. Therefore, marriage should be equally open for all citizens (personally, I don't think government should even be involved with marriage at any level, but that's a different topic). This does not mean that all those marriages are Christian marriages before God. It simply means they have the same rights as Christian married couples, but not necessarily the same covenant with God.

Also, and I've said this before, when you say "The Bible says...", you need to put what verse. Always state your sources when quoting things.
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Re: The Christian take on homosexuality

Post  Kombustion on 3/8/2010, 17:34

I'm just saying this now.. I think its absolutely ridiculous that gay people cant get married.

They are people too. They know whats its like to love. I know MANY MANY gay people who are in love with God.

So I dont see why they cant get married.
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Re: The Christian take on homosexuality

Post  0001 on 3/8/2010, 18:15

@Egg: But what they do SHOULD be our concern, we cannot be pacfists to sin any longer. We need to actievly get out there and fight it, when we simply stand by and allow it to happen, then what does that gain us? Nothing because we need to stand by and protect our beliefs! Mad

But you miss the point, marriage is not juts a legal status, it's a Holy Covenant. I'll look up all the places in the Bible where it is mentioned as such in a bit. I will have to admit that the point you made about other religions is a good one. However they are still honoring the covenant as God had intended it, even if they are not followers of God themselves, THAT'S the key difference.

@Kombustion: And how does that work exactly? Homosexuality is not what God intended, nor designed. How can one be in love with God, yet openly flaunt his teachings? That's heresy in my opinion...

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Re: The Christian take on homosexuality

Post  Jedi Joe on 3/8/2010, 19:18

I have nothing against gays, but marriage is a holy covenant that should only be between a man and a woman. As a Christian-based nation, we should follow that rule.


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Re: The Christian take on homosexuality

Post  0001 on 3/8/2010, 19:29

Read this it's very interesting:
The issue of homosexual behavior has had a lot of publicity of late. Homosexuals say that the slaves have been freed and women have been liberated, so gay rights are long overdue. Society does seem to be moving in that direction. Many homosexuals are “coming out” and openly declaring their homosexuality. In many parts of the western world, homosexual couples receive the same recognition as heterosexual couples with regard to social security benefits. Some church leaders are giving their blessing to homosexual relationships, homosexual church members and even homosexual ministers.

Many homosexuals' claim that…
They are made that way.

Homosexuality is of no harm to the participants or to anyone else.

If it feels right to those involved, it is nobody else's business.

Homosexual relationships and heterosexual relationships are equally valid. (Some even claim that the Bible condones homosexual relationships.)

Made that way?
Since other groups who have been discriminated against (such as women, blacks and the disabled) have been given equal opportunity, homosexuals claim that they, too, should be liberated. However, as one Christian expert has said …

“Gender, race and impairment all relate to what a person is, whereas homosexuality relates to what a person does.”1

In contrast, homosexuals claim that scientific studies have shown that there is a biological basis for homosexuality.

Three main studies are cited by “gay rights” activists in support of their argument2Hamer's X-chromosome research,3 LeVay's study of the hypothalamus,4 and Bailey and Pillard's study of identical twins who were homosexuals.5

In all three cases, the researchers had a vested interest in obtaining a certain outcome because they were homosexuals themselves. More importantly, their studies did not stand up to scientific scrutiny by other researchers. Also, “the media typically do not explain the methodological flaws in these studies, and they typically oversimplify the results”.6 There is no reliable evidence to date that homosexual behavior is determined by a person's genes.

To the extent that biological or social factors may contribute to a person's bent toward homosexual behavior, this does not excuse it. Some people have a strong bent towards stealing or abuse of alcohol, but they still choose to engage or not engage in this behavior the law rightly holds them accountable.

The final report of the Baptist Union of Western Australia (BUWA) Task Force on Human Sexuality states “that a person becomes a homosexual ultimately by choosing to be involved in same-sex activity… This is in contrast to innate characteristics such as gender and ethnicity.”7 The report affirms that “the Bible is clear that sin involves choice, and it unequivocally condemns homosexual behavior as sin.”7

The foundational teaching on marriage and sexual issues is found in Genesis chapters 1 and 2. When Jesus was questioned about marriage, He referred to these 2 chapters (Matthew 19:1-12; Mark 10:1-12). Genesis teaches us that “male and female He created them” (Genesis 1:27). We were created to a plan, male and female complementing each other. That is, God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve, nor Madam and Eve.

Genesis also teaches that God instituted and designed marriage between a man and a woman (Genesis 2:18-25). There are a number of reasons why He did so.

The complementary structure of the male and female anatomy is obviously designed for the normal husband-wife relationships. Clearly, design in human biology supports heterosexuality and contradicts homosexuality.

The combination of male and female enables man (and the animals) to produce and nurture offspring as commanded in Genesis 1:28 “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth.” This command is repeated to Noah after the Flood (Genesis 8:15-17). But procreation is not the only reason God made humans as sexual beings. The BUWA report affirms “that sexual intimacy between husband and wife is good, and is intended by God for bonding, pleasure and procreation.”7

Thirdly, God gave man and woman complementary roles in order to strengthen the family unit. Woman was to be the helper that man needed (Genesis 2:18). However, the woman's role as the helpmate is certainly not an inferior one. The enterprising God-fearing woman in Proverbs 31:10-31 is an inspiring role model.

No harm?
Andrew Lansdown points out that 'homosexual activity is notoriously disease-prone. In addition to diseases associated with heterosexual promiscuity, homosexual actions facilitate the transmission of anal herpes, hepatitis B, intestinal parasites, Kaposi's Sarcoma and AIDS.'1 Research on the life expectancy of a group of homosexual men in Canada in the early 1990s indicated that they could expect 8-21 years less lifespan than other men.8

Effect on others
Secular psychologists assure us that 'children raised in lesbian and gay households are similar to children raised in heterosexual households on characteristics such as intelligence, development, moral judgments, self-concepts, social competence and gender identity'.6 The humanists have, however, forgotten one important ingredient.

“Train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not depart from it” (Proverbs 22:6).

You cannot faithfully teach God's Word to your children while living a lifestyle specifically condemned by God's Word. All Christians are sinners forgiven by God's grace, but living in a homosexual relationship constitutes habitual, unrepented sin.

Nobody else's business?
Gay activists claim that homosexual activity is nobody's business other than those involved in the relationship. However, this is not true. God, our Designer and Creator, has authority over all aspects of our lives. He makes the rules, and He quite specifically forbids homosexual behavior.

“You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination” (Leviticus 18:22; see also Leviticus 20:13).

Disobedience of such a clear command indicates rejection of God's authority.

Some people argue that the Old Testament law (including Leviticus 18 and 20) was superseded with the coming of Christ. However, we should at least consider as binding those aspects of the law that are renewed in the New Testament. The teaching of Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 was certainly reaffirmed in the New Testament.

Equally valid?
Some people claim that homosexual behavior was only condemned in the Bible because it was associated with idolatry (e.g. 1 Kings 14:24). However, it is clearly condemned apart from idolatry as well (e.g. Leviticus 18:22). It is described in Scripture as an unnatural, immoral perversion.

“For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another…” (Romans 1:26-27).

The Greek word arsenokoitai used in 1 Timothy 1:10 literally means “men who sleep with men.” It is the same Greek word used for “homosexual offender” in 1 Corinthians 6:9, variously translated as “abusers of themselves with mankind” (KJV), homosexuals (NASB) or homosexual offender (NIV).

Some people claim that the sin involved in Sodom was rejecting hospitality customs or selfishness rather than homosexual behavior. Certainly, the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah was great and their reported sin was grievous to God (Genesis 18:20). God sent angels to Sodom and…

“Now before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, both old and young, all the people from every quarter, surrounded the house. And they called to Lot and said to him, Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may have sex with them” (Genesis 19:4-5).

“While it is true that the Hebrew word yadha does not necessarily mean 'to have sex with,' nonetheless in the context of Sodom and Gommorah, it clearly had this meaning. …It means 'to know sexually' in this very chapter when Lot refers to his two daughters not having “known” a man (19:Cool.” 9 You would not offer virgins to appease a mob if their sin was lack of hospitality, but only if their desire was sexual.

Although Ezekiel 16:49 condemns Sodom for its selfishness with regard to poverty etc., this does not contradict its condemnation for homosexual practices. “The very next verse of Ezekiel (v. 50) calls their sin an ‘abomination.’ This is the same Hebrew word used to describe homosexual sins in Leviticus 18:22.”10

It is also used in Scripture to describe such things like the practice of offering children to Moloch, but never such things as mere selfishness or lack of hospitality. Even in legal parlance, the word used to refer to one aspect of homosexual practice is 'sodomy'.

Another argument is that Jonathon and David were homosexuals as 'Jonathan loved David (1 Sam. 18:3), that Jonathan stripped in David's presence (18:4), [and] that they kissed each other (20:41)'.11

However, “David's love for Jonathan was not sexual (erotic) but a friendship (philic) love. And Jonathan did not strip himself of all his clothes, but only of his armor and royal robe (1 Sam. 18:4).”12 Also, a kiss was a normal greeting in that day, such as when Judas kissed Jesus. In several cultures today, men normally greet each other with a kiss, too. Further, David's love for his wives, especially Bathsheba (2 Samuel 11), clearly reveals his heterosexual orientation.

Isaiah 56:3 states that eunuchs will not be excluded from God's presence (“my temple”), but practicing homosexuals are not eunuchs. Eunuchs have no sexual relations at all.

Other scriptural arguments for homosexuality can similarly be easily refuted. It is clear that heterosexual marriage is the only form of marriage sanctioned in the Bible and that homosexual practice is always condemned.

Punishment
The Bible not only describes homosexual behavior as detestable, but it also calls for the punishment of those involved (Leviticus 20:13). Their unrepentant attitude caused God to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah (Genesis 19:24-25).

Just as homosexual conduct has been punished in the past, so it will also be punished by God in the future.

“…Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortion ers will inherit the kingdom of God” (1 Corinthians 6:9-10).

Hope
However, there is hope for the homosexual. God forgives and cleanses a person who repents and turns from their sin, including the sin of homosexual behavior (1 Corinthians 6:11). As well as forgiveness, God's grace brings with it the power to live a life that is pleasing to God (Romans 6:6-7). If repentance and reform are genuine, prior homosexual actions should not be a bar to church membership or ministry, as all Christians are reformed sinners.

“Liberal” churches espouse tolerance of homosexual behavior in the name of “love.” They plug for the acceptance of homosexual conduct as normal, “because they can't help it.” They are not only wrong about the latter, but they are actually not being at all loving towards homosexuals, because, contrary to the Bible, they reduce the homosexual person to the level of an animal, driven by instinct. In removing moral responsibility from the person, they dehumanize them, whereas the Bible says we are made in the image of God (Genesis 1:26-27), with the power of moral choice.

Furthermore, the gospel proclaims liberation from the bondage of sin, including homosexual sin, whereas the “liberals” tell the homosexual that they cannot help it, and they can't help them either, so they will accept them as they are! However, many a person has been gloriously rescued from the bondage of homosexual sin (and other sin) by the power of the Holy Spirit, but only Bible-believing Christians can offer such hope.13

Conclusion
As with all moral issues, our beliefs about our origin determine our attitude. If we believe that we arose from slime by a combination of random chance events and the struggle for survival, it is understandable to say that there is no higher authority, and we can make our own rules. However, if there is a loving God who planned us and gave commands for us to follow, then we must do so. God has set forth His standards in the Bible, beginning with the foundational teaching in the book of Genesis.

Original article here: http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-c040.html

And also read this:
God's plan for sexuality
"So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them."
—Genesis 1:27 (NKJV)

"And the LORD God said, 'It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him.' Out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them. And whatever Adam called each living creature, that was its name. So Adam gave names to all cattle, to the birds of the air, and to every beast of the field. But for Adam there was not found a helper comparable to him. And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall on Adam, and he slept; and He took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh in its place. Then the rib which the LORD God had taken from man He made into a woman, and He brought her to the man. And Adam said: 'This is now bone of my bones And flesh of my flesh; She shall be called Woman, Because she was taken out of Man.' Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh. And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed."
—Genesis 2:18-25 (NKJV)

The image of God is both male and female and is reflected in a godly union between male and female where the creative power of God, His life-giving, His self-giving and His moral nature are perfectly expressed. This is only possible in a heterosexual union.

When God created a partner for Adam He created Eve - not another Adam. This means that perfect partnership requires some level of difference as well as a level of similarity so great that Adam could cry out loudly, "This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh". Sexual intimacy between a man and a woman is the normal method of male/female bonding (emotionally and physically) because it corresponds to the design of our bodies and because it is the normal means by which offspring are created.


If God had intended the human race to be fulfilled through both heterosexual and homosexual marriage, He would have designed our bodies to allow reproduction through both means and made both means of sexual intercourse healthy and natural. Homosexual anal intercourse carries a high risk of disease, this is recognized in Scripture where gay men are said to receive in their bodies the due penalty for their error (Romans 1:27).

[Editor's Note: Various studies indicate that homosexual behavior makes both men and women more vulnerable to disease and decreases lifespan. See: R.S. Hogg, S.A. Strathdee, KJ Craib, MV O'Shaughnessy, JS Montaner and MT Schechter, "Modelling the impact of HIV disease on mortality in gay and bisexual men," International Journal of Epidemiology, Vol. 26 (Oxford University, 1997), pp. 657-661. ("If the same pattern of mortality were to continue, we estimate that nearly half of gay and bisexual men currently aged 20 years will not reach their 65th birthday") / Executive Summary, "Health Implications Associated with Homosexuality," Medical Institute of Sexual Health (1999) ("Homosexual men are at significantly increased risk for HIV/AIDS, hepatitis, anal cancer, gonorrhea and gastrointestinal infections." "Women who have sex with women are at significantly increased risk of bacterial vaginosis, breast cancer and ovarian cancer than are heterosexual women.") / L.A. Valleroy, D.A. MacKellar, J.M. Daron, et al, "HIV prevalence and associated risks in young men who have sex with men," JAMA, 284 (2000), pp. 198-204. (Discusses the prevalence of HIV infection and high-risk behaviors in study group of 3,492 young men who have sex with men.) / D. Binson, W.J. Woods, L. Pollack, J. Paul, R. Stall, J.A. Catania, "Differential HIV risk in bathhouses and public cruising areas," American Journal of Public Health, 91 (2001), pp. 1482-1486. (demonstrates that high risk behaviors are still quite common among homosexual men).]

What Jesus taught
"And He answered and said to them, 'Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning 'made them male and female,'"
—Matthew 19:4 (NKJV)

"But from the beginning of the creation, God 'made them male and female.'"
—Mark 10:6 (NKJV)

When Jesus was asked questions about marriage he went straight back to the defining passages in Genesis that say that marriage is between male and female and is meant to be life long. He saw the creation accounts in Genesis as authoritative in His day. And what is authoritative for Jesus is authoritative for Christians also. While Jesus did not specifically teach on homosexuality, His establishment of the Genesis passages as the fundamental passages on marriage (even more fundamental than the Law) leaves no doubt as to the outcome.

What else does the Bible say?
"For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due."
—Romans 1:26-27 (NKJV)

"Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God."
—1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (NKJV)

"Knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine,"
—1 Timothy 1:9-10 (NKJV)


© Jeremiah FilmsThese three references indicate that homosexual passions and acts are unnatural, shameful, contrary to sound doctrine and deny entrance to the Kingdom of God. This being so they cannot be the basis of a Christian marriage sanctioned by God's Church. The Church exists to save people, not to bless the means of their damnation. No marriage can be sanctioned by the Church if the very basis of the marriage involves acts that put the couple outside of eternal salvation. No matter what our society may legislate, the law of God is clear - that a marriage is not a godly marriage if it is a same sex union.

Are emotions a sufficient basis for marriage?

© Jeremiah FilmsHollywood has propagated the myth that when it comes to marriage "all you need is love." This is simply not true. Marriage is not based on emotion any more than any other partnership in life is. Marriage, like many human activities, involves emotion but it is not constituted by the presence of any particular set of emotions. I do not deny that many homosexuals feel deeply for their partners; however I do assert that no matter how deep the feelings, what they have is not a marriage in God's sight. It is a beautiful deception.

Just because an emotion is deep or powerful does not justify acting upon it. Like drugs, like adultery, like the abuse of alcohol or the love of money, or the power rush of human ego trips, there are emotions which are powerful and addictive and ultimately terribly destructive. Same sex marriages must satisfy criteria other than emotion. A marriage is more than a sexual pleasure center. A marriage is a social unit that is interwoven with dozens of other lives.

Same sex marriages do not last. Less than 5% of gays have ever had a relationship that lasted 3 years or more. Sex is not enough. Passion cannot sustain an inherently unstable social unit.

Society, the Church and same sex marriages

© Jeremiah FilmsMarriage is a fundamental social institution that does not exist just for the emotional satisfaction of two individuals but for the greater good of the community which stands under the blessing or curse of God. Societies that put emotional fulfillment before right actions and principles will soon give way to a multitude of addictions and deep corruptions and collapse. God will judge any society that institutes same sex marriages.

I also believe that God will judge a society that permits adoption of children or the use of sperm banks by same sex couples. His Word stands over society and when it is deliberately flaunted in the name of progress and enlightenment, then it is not light but deep darkness that results. We cannot bend the principles of God's Word to suit vocal minority groups. While some nations may enact laws permitting these evils, the true church of God must stand resolutely firm and never allow the sanctioning of same sex marriages by Christian clergy. No church that takes the Bible seriously can sanction a union between homosexuals or lesbians.

Original article here: http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-f018.html

This is the exact same way I view the issue as well.

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Re: The Christian take on homosexuality

Post  Cpt. Crinkle on 3/8/2010, 21:46

Hey I agree only a woman and a man. It is creepy and he tries talking creepy around me. Everyone who knows him knows about this and I am creeped out time to stop.

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Re: The Christian take on homosexuality

Post  0001 on 3/8/2010, 23:14

Yeah, that is a very true story there Crink.... Shocked By the way, prolly shouldn't mentions names, so I edited it out for ya vod. Wink

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Re: The Christian take on homosexuality

Post  80-0 on 3/9/2010, 05:13

Sgt Angry Egg wrote:Ah, finally, a subject I can really sink my teeth into, argument-wise.
I'm all for gay rights. Here's why:
1. The claim that they should be denied the status of marriage due to marriage being a covenant with God is hypocritical, as we allow heterosexual members of other religions to get married, despite the fact that they don't believe in the same God as us.

Oh, you're so wrong about that. We, or perhaps I have to speak for myself, the Church and I clearly state that a mere marriage license is not enough to allow persons to be married. And we have never "allowed" the other religions to marry. That's a silly excuse. It's like saying someone should be allowed to do something because someone else was allowed to do it.

2. "Marriage" is just a word, and thus nothing more than an arbitrary term. It really doesn't take much effort to append the prefix "same sex" or "heterosexual" when necessary.

Oh, you're so wrong about that again. I take it you support divorce too? What you bind on earth is also bound in heaven. Marriage lasts until death.

3. It's none of our business. What they do in the privacy of their own homes doesn't concern me, or you, or anyone else on this site, save any closet gays we may have in our midst.

It doesn't concern me; it's also immoral.

Expanding on 1 and 2: Marriage is a legal status dictating property distribution. Therefore, marriage should be equally open for all citizens (personally, I don't think government should even be involved with marriage at any level, but that's a different topic). This does not mean that all those marriages are Christian marriages before God. It simply means they have the same rights as Christian married couples, but not necessarily the same covenant with God.

What kind of thing is that for a Christian to say? This is a Christian nation, founded under God. So as the founding fathers would have it, marriage too should be under God.

Also, and I've said this before, when you say "The Bible says...", you need to put what verse. Always state your sources when quoting things.

It's easier to remember the saying, not the verse. Razz
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Re: The Christian take on homosexuality

Post  0001 on 3/9/2010, 15:38

Thank you 80-0! Very Happy But it shoukld concern you too, remember a soul that we could have saved, but didn't, is blood on our hands also. Wink And yeah, most of what I say is from sermons at church, so I don't remember the exact verses. Laughing

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Re: The Christian take on homosexuality

Post  Sgt Angry Egg on 3/9/2010, 16:40

Ok, I think it will be easier to reply in bullet points.
@ABL:
1.You said gays should be our concern, as we need to fight sin.
I say, we need to not commit sin ourselves, and to try and help our fellow man not be sinful, but we also need to not force our views on others.

2.You said I missed the point. That marriage is not just a legal status, it is a covenant before God.
I say, I got the point and you missed what I was saying. The legal status of marriage is arbitrary, as you implied yourself in your own statement. Therefore, because the legal status of marriage is arbitrary, let them get married legally. This doesn't mean they will be making a covenant with God, it doesn't have any religious implications whatsoever. All it means is that their tax brackets combine.

3. In the 1st article you posted, it said homosexuals are disease-ridden.
This is like saying little kids are evil because of their tendency to get and give colds. Also, I did not see any mention of sample sizes in their 'studies', so they cannot give any plausible percentages. If they only tested a few dozen gays, the results will be unusably inaccurate.

4. That same article also says God forbids homosexuality.
The fact that God forbids it doesn't give us the right to force others to do what we deem right.

@Crinkle:
1. The fact that one person turned out a little weird doesn't mean anything. I could claim that we Christians are all Muslim killing cannibals, based on the fact that the Crusaders were Christians, but I would be wrong.

@80-0
1. You said that a marriage license is not enough for marriage
That is the exact point I was making. Marriage licenses don't mean jack, so what's wrong with giving them to gays? It doesn't actually mean anything, it is completely arbitrary, because it's not a real, Godly marriage.
2. You said that what is binding on earth is binding in heaven.
I don't particularly buy that. I stand by the fact that marriage licenses issued by a man made government is not binding in heaven.
3. You said it doesn't concern you, but it is immoral
That depends on the point of view. It's immoral for us, but they don't consider it immoral. We are just as wrong in their eyes as they are in our eyes. All we can do is learn to live together in the same nation. Which leads to number four...
4. This is a Christian nation
This is not a Christian nation. This nation was based on religious freedom. That is, the government is founded on the secular concept of democracy, not theocracy. The founding fathers may have been Christians, but they saw the benefit to a secular government. This is why we are able to live in peace with our Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, and other religious compatriots.

And yes, I know it's hard to remember the exact verse number, but it is still important to find out and post them, just like you always post links to the original articles you read.
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Re: The Christian take on homosexuality

Post  0001 on 3/9/2010, 16:55

Hmmm, this idea of yours of the differenc between a Godly Marriage, and a Legal one is fascinating, honestly you do have a point there, there is a difference. As Christians we need only be concerned about what marriage means in God's eyes, because what people think does not matter. That does bring up a very interesting perspective on the matter...

I think what 80-0 was actually reffering too, was that a Christian marriage stands in heaven and on Earth. Where as a nonChristian Marriage only counts on Earth, which seems to be the point you are making as well.

And yeah, we shouldn't push our views on anyone, but we shouldn't just stand by and let it happen either, we need to fight sin, but in a way that won't turn people off.

You bring up some very good points there Egg, which require further pondering on my part.

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Re: The Christian take on homosexuality

Post  Sgt Angry Egg on 3/9/2010, 17:07

Thank you Smile
I think that the best way to fight sin is to not concentrate on one meaningless sin, but rather concentrate on bringing people to believe in God and Jesus. Not that all Christians (or any of them, for that matter) are perfect, but the most important step is converting. "Free your mind and your %&* will follow" applies here, quite literally.
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Re: The Christian take on homosexuality

Post  0001 on 3/9/2010, 17:11

Nope, Christians are not perfect, nor does God love use more, we are simply forgiven for our mistakes, as long as we trust in him, and learn from them. Although I would argue the point of "one meaningless sin" because there are no meaningless sins. Wink

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Re: The Christian take on homosexuality

Post  Sgt Angry Egg on 3/9/2010, 17:13

Ok, 'meaningless' wasn't the best word choice. I meant it was of little consequence when compared to the sin of not accepting Jesus.
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Re: The Christian take on homosexuality

Post  0001 on 3/9/2010, 17:17

Ooooh true that. You know Egg, I think you may be one of those people that it is impossible to get mad at, even when arguing different sides of an issue. Razz

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Re: The Christian take on homosexuality

Post  0001 on 3/9/2010, 17:21

FYI: The official C.A.A. standpoint on Gay/transgender/whatever people is this: We will still treat them the same as everybody else, and help them as we would anybody else. And we take a neutral stance on their marriage. We arn't for it, but arn't going to stop it either. They are not allowed to join up however, because in our eyes, it's still is a sin...

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