Mary, the Mother of God

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Mary, the Mother of God

Post  80-0 on 8/22/2010, 15:21

She is after all the mother of each and every one of us.

So why do some people not like the idea of praying to her? Why do they say it's "worshiping Mary", which is worship that of course is due only to God? The simple fact is that it is not worshiping Mary, it is asking her for anything we need, physical or spiritual, whether it be the grace to overcome temptation to sin, or the ability to perform well at something on which our livelihood depends.

When I pray this prayer, I am not giving her worship which belongs undoubtedly to God, I am honoring her selfless choice to be the Mother of God, and her position of honor in Heaven.

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed are thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us, sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.

How is that "worshiping" Mary?

Hail Holy Queen, Mother of mercy, our life, our sweetness, and our hope. To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve. To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this vale of tears. Turn, then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy towards us. And after this, our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Oh clement, oh loving, oh sweet virgin Mary, pray for us, oh Holy Mother of God, that we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.


So you see, when I say these prayers, I am not worshiping Mary, but honoring her, and taking account of the fact that she is in Heaven, am asking her for intercession on my behalf and on behalf of anyone for whom my intention has been made. Smile
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Re: Mary, the Mother of God

Post  Jedi Joe on 8/23/2010, 08:21

Mary was an ordinary woman, not a supernatural figure. She was merely picked to give birth to Jesus, and she accepted. Yes, it's an honorable decision, but praying to her, and calling her the mother of us all is a little too much, I think. I even saw a sign at a Catholic church that said "Mary: Queen of the Universe!"... Rolling Eyes
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Re: Mary, the Mother of God

Post  0001 on 8/23/2010, 16:26

Yeah, although the prayers seem innocent enough, "asking" Mary for anything is sort of useless because she doesn't have the power to give anything. Mary was just an ordinary woman who God chose to carry Jesus, she wasn't endowed with supernatural powers or position or anything. Idk, I'm just uncomfortable praying to anyone but God.

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Re: Mary, the Mother of God

Post  Cpt. Crinkle on 8/23/2010, 19:51

Abl I agree I just believe we only need to pray to God.

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Re: Mary, the Mother of God

Post  80-0 on 8/25/2010, 11:02

See, you all don't believe in grace. That's where I disagree with you guys... you say that as long as you have a relationship with God and you ask him for forgiveness he'll give to you.

She was just an ordinary woman BEFORE her choice... But what about afterward? Why did Elizabeth declare her the Mother of God? Divine inspiration, obviously. And similarly, why did the Archangel Gabriel say "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women."? That's the first half of the Hail Mary. What does "full of grace" mean? Do any of you know the answer to that, or have an answer to that? I know the answer to that. It's in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. What does "The Lord is with thee" mean?

@ Joe: Wow, I AM SHOCKED. Don't you think Christ loved His mother at all? He certainly did. Many times in Scripture does Christ ask us to ask Mary for favors... I believe she occupies a special place of importance in Heaven, and I don't see what is so wrong about asking the people in Heaven to pray for us, including Mary.

If there are people in Heaven, they can pray for us, can't they? Just as we pray for ourselves and each other, can't we ask them to pray for us? And since Mary has such great respect from Christ, her son, ought not we ask her for help?

@ ABL: She doesn't have the power to give anything, but would Christ say no to His mother? I made this post because the homily by the priest stressed the importance of praying to Mary... he listed numerous Scriptures and quotes from saints and from Christ Himself that I unfortunately don't all remember, but one thing he did say was that Christ loves His mother so much that if we ask her for something that we truly need, she will ask Christ to give it to us. Hopefully that makes more sense...
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Re: Mary, the Mother of God

Post  0001 on 8/26/2010, 12:39

I guess it sorta does, but I still think why not just cut out the middle man and ask Christ directly? I'm not really knowledgeable that much about the Catholic Church, but I think they over complicate things a lot. It's all about you, and Christ, and that's it. Everything else is just peripheral, although I do respect the procedures and traditions they have, and how seriously they take faith. So it's not a bad thing, I'm just not sure I would want to be like that.

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Re: Mary, the Mother of God

Post  Cpt. Crinkle on 8/26/2010, 19:26

Now this is about to get stupid...no wonder there was a reformation.

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Re: Mary, the Mother of God

Post  80-0 on 8/27/2010, 09:06

No wonder? No WONDER mere mortals threw out everything Christ GAVE to us on this earth in terms of religion? He institutes seven sacraments, but "oh we only need those ones"? He institutes a sacred priesthood but "eh we can change the rules about that"? He gives St. Peter the keys to Heaven and the power to change or create laws within His Church, and "oh the Pope doesn't really have the powers of St. Peter; he's a figurehead."

Since when did mere mortals suddenly know so much about how to live a Christian life? I'm sorry, but this whole concept of "you can be Christian the way you want to be Christian!" just annoys me to no end. You don't get to decide how Christian you can be.

The things Catholics believe are the things Christ and St. Peter had outlined since the beginning of time. I don't know who thought they were so high and mighty that they could "reform" Christ's Church, but all I know is that Christ made the Catholic Church the way it is now when he gave St. Peter the new Law, and banished the Old Law (that being the Law of the Jews). We haven't changed very much... but we have added many new things which I think are not as much of a bad thing for Christianity as the Reformation was, in terms of souls lost.


(I sound like a terrible person don't I)

@ ABL: Ok, that's fair enough, I just like the closure it gives to spiritual things by giving clear cut definitions to such key parts of the faith as they do. Smile
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Re: Mary, the Mother of God

Post  Jedi Joe on 8/27/2010, 10:44

80-0, there was a reformation because the Church was killing people for coming up with "secularist ideas", such as the theory that the Earth moved around the Sun, and things such as that.

I don't think Christ intended for that to happen. Separation of Church and State is the way to go.
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Re: Mary, the Mother of God

Post  80-0 on 8/27/2010, 13:51

Who died? Who are these people who were killed? I know you don't mean the Inquisition...
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Re: Mary, the Mother of God

Post  Jedi Joe on 8/27/2010, 14:12

Galileo, for one... He wasn't directly killed, but was put under house arrest for the rest of his life. There was some other guy (forgot his name) who got burned at the stake for saying the same thing.
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Re: Mary, the Mother of God

Post  80-0 on 8/27/2010, 14:27

I looked this up in the New Advent Encyclopedia's article on Galileo, found here.

[The direct services which Galileo rendered to astronomy are virtually summed up in his telescopic discoveries, which, brilliant and important as they were, contributed little or nothing to the theoretical perfection of the science, and were sure to be made by any careful observer provided with a telescope. Again, he wholly neglected discoveries far more fundamental than his own, made by his great contemporary Kepler, the value of which he either did not perceive or entirely ignored. Since the first and second of his famous laws were already published by Kepler in 1609 and the third, ten years later, it is truly inconceivable, as Delambre says, that Galileo should not once have made any mention of these discoveries, far more difficult than his own, which finally led Newton to determine the general principle which forms the very soul of the celestial mechanism thus established. It is, moreover, undeniable, that the proofs which Galileo adduced in support of the heliocentric system of Copernicus, as against the geocentric of Ptolemy and the ancients, were far from conclusive, and failed to convince such men as Tycho Brahé (who, however, did not live to see the telescope) and Lord Bacon, who to the end remained an unbeliever. Milton also, who visited Galileo in his old age (1638), appears to have suspended his judgment, for there are passages in his great poem which seem to favour both systems. The proof from the phenomenon of the tides, to which Galileo appealed to establish the rotation of the earth on its axis, is now universally recognized as a grave error, and he treated with scorn Kepler's suggestion, foreshadowing Newton's establishment of the true doctrine, that a certain occult influence of the moon was in some way responsible. In regard to comets, again, he maintained no less erroneously that they were atmospheric phenomena, like meteors, though Tycho had demonstrated the falsity of such a view, which was recommended only as the solution of an anti-Copernican difficulty.

In spite of all deficiency in his arguments, Galileo, profoundly assured of the truth of his cause, set himself with his habitual vehemence to convince others, and so contributed in no small degree to create the troubles which greatly embittered the latter part of his life.]
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Re: Mary, the Mother of God

Post  Jedi Joe on 8/27/2010, 16:08

And your point is?
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Re: Mary, the Mother of God

Post  80-0 on 8/27/2010, 18:57

Jedi Joe wrote:And your point is?

Galileo... ...contributed in no small degree to create the troubles which greatly embittered the latter part of his life.

Uh, that's my point? He was quite a guy. Yes he was, but judging by his attitude and his self-righteousness (not exactly a Christian trait Razz ) I'd say the Church having put him under house arrest was necessary for them to figure out the situation. Remember back then, stuff took its time getting around, so the Church didn't know everything right off the bat about him. Thus they quarantined just long enough to make sure he wasn't spreading any heresy.

He was essentially going around like a prophet telling the world about the truths he's discovered and how people have to believe in them, etc. All the Church knew was that he was going around spreading a new idea that was contrary to generally accepted thought (which at the time was Christian), so we can't assume that the Church was just rashly throwing its weight around. With heresies abounding, the Church was only being extra careful.
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Re: Mary, the Mother of God

Post  Jedi Joe on 8/27/2010, 21:43

Yea, having a thought police is totally what God wants. I think America got it right with freedom of speech.
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Re: Mary, the Mother of God

Post  0001 on 8/29/2010, 00:06

I think we should end the argument here, it's not really going anywhere. 80-0, you seem to be overlooking a lot of very evil the church has done, remember they KILLED people for reading the Bible because they believed you could only have a relationship with God through a priest or bishop, they also made it illegal to translate the Bible. It was all about power, greed, and control. And to some degree still is, the Catholic system to me is just another form of worship, but there are some things that are fundamentally wrong with it. I mean to me it's like they preach all this and that, but it seems like they aren't actually reading the Bible. I mean no where in the Bible does it validate the existence of the Church. So saying things like the reformation was wrong is nuts, it was good it happened, because it brought Christ to the common people. The Church is of men, and thusly flawed, when we take it into our own hands to be the sole interpreters of God's will, we always mess up, we aren't that pure.

I'm not like anti Catholic or anything, but saying it is the one and true is dangerous and wrong, it's just another form of worship. It's awesome that it means so much to you, but it's not the "only" true system, nor is it perfect. I run into this problem all the time with some other Christians as well, they see their own narrow view as the "one and only" which it's not. As long as the core teachings of Christ are adhered to, all forms of worship are fundamentally equal.


Last edited by astoriabluelegos on 9/7/2010, 22:14; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Mary, the Mother of God

Post  80-0 on 8/30/2010, 18:43

Jedi Joe wrote:Yea, having a thought police is totally what God wants. I think America got it right with freedom of speech.

astoriabluelegos wrote: I think we should end the argument here, it's not really going anywhere. 80-0, you seem to be overlooking a lot of very evil the church has done, remember they KILLED people for reading the Bible because they believed you could only have a relationship with God through a priest or bishop, they also made it illegal to translate the Bible. It was all about power, greed, and control. And to some degree still is, the Catholic system to me is just another form of worship, but there are some things that are fundamentally wrong with it. I mean to me it's like they preach all this and that, but it seems like they aren't actually reading the Bible. I mean no where in the Bible does it validate the existence of the Church. So saying things like the reformation was wrong is nuts, it was good it happened, because it brought Christ to the common people. The Church is of men, and thusly flawed, when we take it into our own hands to be the sole interpreters of God's will, we always mess up, we aren't that pure.

I'm not like anti Catholic or anything, but saying it is the one and true is dangerous and wrong, it's just another form of worship. It's awesome that it means so much to you, but it's not the "only" true system, nor is it perfect. I run into this problem all the time with Baptists as well, they see their own narrow view as the "one and only" which it's not. As long as the core teachings of Christ are adhered to, all forms of worship are fundamentally equal.

You have to stop treating the Bible like un-changeable truth. God didn't write the Bible, but I believe God influenced people to write the Bible. Obviously you have to believe the same thing.

If you believe that, I don't see why you won't believe that God can influence people today, and throughout history, in that regard.

So since you won't believe that God is influencing men today, and you say that the Church is made of men. So is your church, so is EVERYONE'S church. Everybody on the planet right now is a man. Thus, if God isn't influencing men today, all religion must be imperfect because it is of men.

But this Church is not of men. This Church IS of Christ. This is the Church of Jesus Christ; not in name only, that's what it IS. Christ started it. Christ did not start the denominations of the world; the denominations of the world, no matter how simplistic they are, were started by men.


I like that you are focusing on a relationship with God; that is GOOD, because too few people so much as have a relationship with God! The only problem is the simplification of the Christian faith as Christ intended it to be lead to ONLY a relationship with God was a concept that was created by men of this world.

Look, our country had a Civil War. Our country had slavery. The Catholic Church may have persecuted some people as per Joe's concept of thought police, but really, is that a fair criticism of EVERYTHING the Church did during the Middle Ages?

THIS is the Catholic Encylopedia. Just type the word "saint" in the search box and look at all the people who have led exemplary Christian lives of prayer, humility, and sacrifice. And they, every last one, believed the same beliefs I believe right here and right now, and it is those beliefs I am defending.
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Re: Mary, the Mother of God

Post  0001 on 9/7/2010, 22:11

You have some good points there 80-0 in fact I would tend to agree with the entirety of that statement. Also, I too believe in your opinion of the fluidity of the Bible, and also totally agree that God has influenced people and still is to this day. In fact today that's how God usually works, through influence of people and events. So yes. Smile

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Re: Mary, the Mother of God

Post  Sgt Angry Egg on 9/14/2010, 13:03

While it may be true that God is influencing people today, it is impossible to tell who is and who isn't divinely inspired. Though it may have been started by Christ, you cannot say with complete certainty that every member of the Catholic church through it's entire history has been influenced by God. Nor can anyone say that all Protestants have been completely influenced by God. Therefore, no one can say that Catholicism or Protestantism is 'more' Christian. One must focus on one's own relationship with God, and if being Catholic or Protestant or Non-denominational helps you do that, then so be it.

Now to my main point: Ben, for future reference, it's kind of difficult to end an argument when you offer your own opinion on the subject. Smile
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Re: Mary, the Mother of God

Post  0001 on 9/15/2010, 14:52

The voice of reason is back! Excellent summary there vod. Smile True true, although it wasn't so much an opinion as it was the way I actually view the truth, but I get your point.

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Re: Mary, the Mother of God

Post  Cpt. Crinkle on 9/15/2010, 16:54

I am going to just believe in God and that Jesus is his son. I know Mary may be important but I just don't get that idea of praying to saints. I see how it works though and it's something good to understand. The denomination I am involved in doesn't believe in purgatory. Could you talk more on the subject of Purgatory I want a better understanding of it.


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Re: Mary, the Mother of God

Post  Jedi Joe on 9/15/2010, 17:22

astoriabluelegos wrote:...True true, although it wasn't so much an opinion as it was the way I actually view the truth...

Laughing
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Re: Mary, the Mother of God

Post  0001 on 9/15/2010, 17:33

^ What? It's true. tongue

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Re: Mary, the Mother of God

Post  Sgt Angry Egg on 9/17/2010, 15:16

Thank you, thank you Smile

Well, since 80-0 hasn't responded to Crinkle yet, I may as well offer my meager understanding of it up for judgment. I think purgatory is kind of like a cosmic rehab clinic for people who weren't quite bad enough to go to hell, and weren't quite good enough to go to heaven. Am I in the ball park?
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Re: Mary, the Mother of God

Post  80-0 on 9/21/2010, 08:55

Sorry everypeoples, I haven't been on the computer that much because school has revved itself up again.

But yes, Sgt Angry Egg has it about right.

I can go into further detail, though.

When you commit sin, I believe that sin is on your soul until forgiven. When your sins are forgiven, I believe that depending on the gravity of the sin you committed, you have what is called Temporal Punishment remaining on your soul. Prior to forgiveness, you have Eternal Punishment on your soul, what every Christian rightly fears. But when sins are forgiven, Eternal is wiped away, but Temporal remains.

The purpose of Purgatory in relation to Temporal Punishment is to make up for the sins you committed in this life. Since Heaven is for perfection, and ONLY perfection, no hint or trace of sin can be found in us. Since our soul is what goes into Heaven when we die and it is on our soul that sin once resided, I believe that our souls must be purified in this regard.


If I could touch on another subject that is often the subject of controversy in regard to the Church, namely, indulgences...

Indulgences do not forgive sins, they remit Temporal Punishment. Essentially, when you are in the State of Grace (the name given to the state in which you have no sin on your soul), if you perform certain good works, I believe that all or part of your Temporal Punishment will be remitted.

So when people talk about selling indulgences, that's what it means. It isn't selling forgiveness to sin. I don't think it's right to sell them, and I don't think anyone does it anymore, but I still wanted to clear that up. Smile
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