I have a question.

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I have a question.

Post  80-0 on 9/30/2010, 12:10

(Jesus) said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you."

And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit.

Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.

John 20:21-23

If only God can forgive sin, was Jesus lying?




Yes, that's a trick question.

Was the power given to the apostles for just a little while, and then Jesus reclaimed it to himself? What was the point of that if that is the case? I am confused about your stance on this issue.

I think this also proves the concept of penance. I remember someone once said "the Bible doesn't acknowledge penance anywhere". Where it says "whose sins you retain are retained", doesn't that mean the mediator, whoever it may be, has the right to "retain" sins until a certain deed, be it prayer or otherwise, is performed?

And why did I not think of this before?
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Re: I have a question.

Post  0001 on 9/30/2010, 15:03

It's my personal belief that the power died with the apostles. I think only they were allowed to embody it to continue Jesus' work. After they died I think that ability died with them.

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Re: I have a question.

Post  Cpt. Crinkle on 10/1/2010, 09:47

I believe Jesus wasn't lying their as Jesus was God's son thus God was a part of Jesus.

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Re: I have a question.

Post  80-0 on 10/2/2010, 06:31

But WHY? Why would he just give it to the apostles? Why did he give them this ability, and why doesn't it say anywhere that the ability died with them? It doesn't. What is the point of these twelve guys having this ability for the forty, fifty, sixty years in the case of John, before they died? That accomplishes nothing in the greater business, namely saving souls. Would God really do something that meaningless? I find it hard to believe He just put it to an end then and there.

Now let's assume that this power was suddenly very important. Why would it not be mentioned elsewhere in the Scriptures after Jesus gave it to the Apostles? It isn't mentioned anywhere else, so we have to assume one of two things.

1. Jesus gave it to the Apostles so they could forgive or retain peoples' sins as they came to them. (this is twelve men we're talking about; they can only get to so many people in their lifetime)

2. Jesus gave it to the Apostles and, OHNOES, their successors??!???!?!??! silent
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Post  80-0 on 10/2/2010, 08:50

But wait! But wait! Matthew 16:19 and Matthew 18:18!!! "Whatsoever you bind on earth shall be bound also in heaven."

So doesn't that mean the Apostles could have passed on the power?
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Post  0001 on 10/3/2010, 11:33

No, I think the power ended there. People are evil and corrupt and the power to forgive does and should lie only with God. The apostles weren't the only to have that power, all faithful men in the old covenant did. When you damned someone, they were damned. In the old covenant humans had more powers, but the covenant was stricter. When Jesus established the new covenant everything changed, the Apostles were the only remainder of the old covenant, thus they retained that power, but it died with them. Also that verse in Mathew is not referring to this power, but actually to the fact that your life here on earth dictates your life in Heaven, context my friend. Wink

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Re: I have a question.

Post  Cpt. Crinkle on 10/3/2010, 21:03

In 1 Corinthians 12 this lists spiritual gifts that some people still have such as healing, ability to determine between spirits, and be able to accomplish miracles.

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Re: I have a question.

Post  80-0 on 10/4/2010, 11:09

No, I think the power ended there. People are evil and corrupt and the power to forgive does and should lie only with God.

"people"? What if God had more faith in his people? I think he did, and I don't think everyone was evil and corrupt, nor do I think the fact that some people were evil and corrupt is a reason for it to end with the Apostles.

The apostles weren't the only to have that power, all faithful men in the old covenant did.

In the old covenant, sins were more defined, and the punishments/penances to be undergone when sin was committed were what a person had to do to be clean again. It was the whole clean/unclean thing. When you damned someone, they were damned. Yes, that's the old covenant.

In the old covenant humans had more powers, but the covenant was stricter.

If by "humans" you mean "priests". There were many priests and holy men in the old covenant, who did have these powers, but Joe can't damn Jim to hell just because he can. It depended on the sin committed.

When Jesus established the new covenant everything changed, the Apostles were the only remainder of the old covenant, thus they retained that power, but it died with them.

How are they a reminder, and why didn't Christ say something to that effect? This is what could have sealed the envelope on everything you're saying: "But be thou aware that this power I give unto you is only a figurehead of the Old Covenant; when you pass from this world, so to does this power die with you." Jesus never said that. If God wants Christians to believe it died with the Apostles, why wouldn't He have inspired at least ONE of the Scriptural writers to write that? He didn't. That's why I think your argument is a little less solid than mine; I at least have a quote from Jesus that backs mine up, while yours is unfortunately based on an assumption that Jesus meant something he didn't overtly say.

Also that verse in Mathew is not referring to this power, but actually to the fact that your life here on earth dictates your life in Heaven, context my friend. Wink

Hummm... I don't think Jesus was speaking to all of us. He was speaking to Peter. I think it can be used in teaching Christianity to say "Hey, what you do on earth will define where you end up in the next life", but I don't think it means exactly that. What can I loose on earth that will be loosed in heaven? What needs to be loosed up there, that little old me can loose down here? Yes it's figurative speech but I don't think Jesus was saying "Your salvation is in your own hands! Good luck!". I think if anything he was telling Peter that he was giving the authority to bring people to salvation to St. Peter and whosoever succeeded him, but that's just me.

@ Cpt. Crinkle: Yes, so if the Holy Spirit gave to Juan Diego the power, however temporary it were, to make the image of Mary appear on his tilma, wouldn't that essentially be the Holy Spirit (the Holy Spirit is God, people) saying that Mary is important?
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Re: I have a question.

Post  0001 on 10/4/2010, 20:06

Ummm it says in the Bible that every man is evil and corrupt in nature, because we were cursed when we disobeyed God and ate the apple. This includes heads of the Catholic Church and saints. But that's beside the point. I don't think I'm going to push the issue any further because it's far deeper and more complex then I care to go into at this point. The Catholic Church does a lot of good, but they like everybody else have problems. No humans are perfect and all are evil in nature, thus being the root of the problem. Perhaps the power did not die with the apostles, but going on to say that EVERY major Catholic icon or saint had it is a bit of a stretch, because it treats the power like a gift of rank. Remember to Christ servants are more holy then the highest of kings, thats what bothers me the most about the Catholic system. It's all about personal advancement and power and control, I think they missed some aspects of the Bible. But like I have said before they have the most key factors correct and that's great, they also have a lot of history and tradition which is cool that its still going on pretty much the same as it has since the founding of the Church. However debating aspects of Christianity such as this or that is really not that productive I think, God has a set of rules and no matter what or how we interpret things the truth is the truth and we won't find out what it is until we die, so arguing the matter is frankly a waste of time energy and resources. Wink

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Re: I have a question.

Post  80-0 on 10/6/2010, 14:48

Ok, I just want to clarify two things you said:

"Perhaps the power did not die with the apostles, but going on to say that EVERY major Catholic icon or saint had it is a bit of a stretch, because it treats the power like a gift of rank."

I didn't say all saints/Catholic icons had the power to forgive sin. I just said that since the Catholic Church has been using the same rites of ordination and the same sacraments that it did in the years following the fall of the Roman empire, I was saying that the power to forgive sin has passed from the Apostles to those who they ordained as priests, and so on and so forth.

I wasn't saying every saint in the world can forgive sin. Wink

"It's all about personal advancement and power and control, I think they missed some aspects of the Bible."

Let me rephrase that:

It's all about spiritual advancement, and the constant battle against sin, and coming to terms with the knowledge that we can not control ourselves without God, which is why the spiritual lives of all Catholic/Christian ministers/priests are so crucial to their success.

If there is anyone in the Catholic church seeking his own success, I certainly don't support him.

What I don't get about what you said is, how can anyone merit personal gain from becoming a bishop/cardinal/even pope?
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Post  0001 on 10/6/2010, 15:08

Okay true enough. And yeah I was more referring to the Church of old, these days it's less so. But any leadership or figurehead position is a place of power, simply because of it's nature. But that's true, mostly people in those positions are furthering themselves spiritually, at least they should be in any case. Wink

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Re: I have a question.

Post  80-0 on 10/6/2010, 18:28

Quite right. Smile
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Re: I have a question.

Post  Cpt. Crinkle on 10/7/2010, 14:14

By the way the spiritual gifts are only through prayer.

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Post  0001 on 10/7/2010, 15:31

True, as they are not of this world, nor can originate here.

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Re: I have a question.

Post  80-0 on 10/7/2010, 19:32

Cpt. Crinkle wrote:By the way the spiritual gifts are only through prayer.

I believe if one is in the state of grace (no sin on the soul), his good works build up in the treasury of heaven. But aside from that, prayer is the only way to gain spiritual graces.
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Post  0001 on 10/8/2010, 09:40

Indeed, although I'm pretty sure it's impossible to be in a state of grace for an extended period of time, since all people are evil and corrupt, no matter what. Even the greats in the Bible messed up, all except for Jesus that is.

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Re: I have a question.

Post  80-0 on 10/11/2010, 13:57

astoriabluelegos wrote: Indeed, although I'm pretty sure it's impossible to be in a state of grace for an extended period of time, since all people are evil and corrupt, no matter what. Even the greats in the Bible messed up, all except for Jesus that is.

That's why the Catholic Church has the sacrament of penance, so everyone both great and small can return to the state of grace. I believe everyone has the opportunity to be in the state of grace at any given time in their life.

I don't believe that a fancy title means someone is more holy than someone else; actions speak louder than words, as we all know. Smile
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Post  0001 on 10/11/2010, 16:49

Indeed, I agree that you must seek out and live a Christian lifestyle to truly be Christian.

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Re: I have a question.

Post  0027 on 11/28/2010, 19:17

I think that God gives us our spiritual gifts, that he knows what they are and how we can use them to be effective. I don't think they're earned, I think they just are.I also believe we need to live a Christian lifestyle. I also believe however that if someone is on their deathbed and hasn't lived a very good life but in the end asks God to forgive them for everything he will and they will go to heaven. I don't really believe that good works get ou to heaven. I think that they are neccessary to follow God's Commandments/ His will, but in te end they things that save us are simply:

Faith in God
Trust in God
God's Immense Love for us

The Last being the Greatest and more important. If it wasn't for love we wouldn't be here or matter. We would all be doomed. That's Just my two cents. By the way, the original question that started this thread gives me a headache!!!! Smile
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Re: I have a question.

Post  0001 on 11/28/2010, 21:10

You are right on the money! That is EXACTLY how I see it as well! Very Happy

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Re: I have a question.

Post  0027 on 11/29/2010, 10:30

Good. I was trying to get right on, you know summarize it to make sure I know what's going on.
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Re: I have a question.

Post  0001 on 11/29/2010, 17:52

That's a good way to be. We should probably start some new topics in this area since the ones that are here are pretty old.

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Re: I have a question.

Post  Sgt Angry Egg on 2/17/2011, 14:12

Punishment I say! Feel my spammy wrath!
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